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Kart4fun
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 404
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 Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Nick wrote: |
Consumer law in this country is fairly simple in some instances, if you buy in product or service and that product or service fails to perform satisfactorily then you are entitled to ask the supplier to provide a remedy for you - be that a replacement product or a refund of monies spent - the Rotax clutch is just such a product - and it down to Rotax/JAG to provide a solution that doesn't involve extra cost to you (or me) as a consumer.. |
Nick, please stop bleating and carry out your threat to progress a legal solution to this IF you are so confident of your position.
FYI:- "cheating" ...implies that something does not comply with certain rules / regulations. All rules require enforcement or checks to ensure compliance. It is that enforcement and checks that have failed in this case, not the clutch. |
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Replying to Alan>>>> well its only an assumption of mine.. but technically, accepting the properties of Computer Aided Manufacture, they HAVE to be very VERY similar physically because they are cut using CAD/CAM and CNC Router arent they?
If it were me designing the barrel.. Id split it into two parts.. the outer casing for the coolent and the inner casing for the combustion and use Gravity Die Casting to produce the Barrels.. and use automated jigging after the casting process to drill all the bolt holes etc..
That way they would be identical! And it'd be a cheaper way of producing them.. not that Im totally sure of the full manufacture process currently.. lol
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Kart4fun wrote: | | Nick wrote: |
Consumer law in this country is fairly simple in some instances, if you buy in product or service and that product or service fails to perform satisfactorily then you are entitled to ask the supplier to provide a remedy for you - be that a replacement product or a refund of monies spent - the Rotax clutch is just such a product - and it down to Rotax/JAG to provide a solution that doesn't involve extra cost to you (or me) as a consumer.. |
Nick, please stop bleating and carry out your threat to progress a legal solution to this IF you are so confident of your position.
FYI:- "cheating" ...implies that something does not comply with certain rules / regulations. All rules require enforcement or checks to ensure compliance. It is that enforcement and checks that have failed in this case, not the clutch. |
But then according to you, to give a prisoner a chainsaw and expect him NOT to cut his way out would be justified!?.. even though the guards are telling him to stay in the cell... ? (and dont come back with ''oh thats a matter of public safety and punishment''.. its the same concept.)
Mate you should know that people desperate to win are going to go as far as possible to achieve.. If one is given the tools, dont expect one not to use them..
This issue should have been a lot higher priority-wise in the Design Brief and Design Specification stages of the clutch.. If people having been doing it for so damn long then Rotax should've stopped it being possible in their design.. after all that is their job.. to take current issues with other competing products and develop and improve their own...
Mate if your fine about the situation then thats lovely... But dont knock people for caring.. It is care that is being lost from Karting and motorsports on the whole and the effects are evident..
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Kart4fun
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Nate,
i am trying to tell you(& Nick) that you are directing your energies in the wrong direction.
how do you prevent someone using the wrong components in the carb ? ..
.... by your argument, Rotax should have used a "cheatproof" carb , with parts that cannot be changed.
The point is . It is IMPOSSIBLE to design a "cheat proof" clutch without specifying and enforcing the checks that need to be done to ensure people dont cheat.
It is those rules and checks that are not being enforced correctly .
..nothing to do with the clutch design. |
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Arrow racer
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 41
Location: KENYA
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Kart4fun
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Arrow racer wrote: | | .... i know that rotax engines are over priced i think 1000 pounds is too much for a engine at the level of the rotax You can easily buy a kf engine for that amount which is much better to drive. |
you are obviously talking of used prices ?.. since new KF's are double the price of Rotax.
...but wait until you have to buy any spares for that KF 
and the Rotax will be worth a lot more , if you want to sell it on at some stage. |
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1093
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| DGorman wrote: | | I can't see the blame going to Rotax for it's competitors misusing the clutch. |
Indeed you do have a point about the competitors effectively misusing the clutch, but, and it's a big but, even when greased according to JAG, grease still find its way into the clutch, therefore it is a design fault.
The difference between this and someone over boring a barrel say, it that is easy to pick up an over bored barrel, that would clearly have been a deliberate act to gain an advantage, there is no way to prove that someone has deliberately over greased a clutch to gain an advantage, even JAG say the presence of 'some' grease is not reason enough alone to DSQ someone - define 'some' ?
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1093
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Arrow racer wrote: | | Nick just because i live in kenya does not mean everything is backward over here we have the same laws. |
Never implied things were backward in Kenya, laws vary from country to country, good to hear you have the same consumer laws - use them from time to time.
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1093
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Kart4fun wrote: | | Nick, please stop bleating and carry out your threat to progress a legal solution to this IF you are so confident of your position. |
Trust me sunshine, if this filters down to club racing that is exactly what I will be doing.
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1093
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kart4fun wrote: | .... by your argument, Rotax should have used a "cheatproof" carb , with parts that cannot be changed.
The point is . It is IMPOSSIBLE to design a "cheat proof" clutch without specifying and enforcing the checks that need to be done to ensure people dont cheat. |
You really don't understand this do you.
It is easy to inspect a carb, a power value, ignition pickup etc and see if it has been modified, you don't need to modify the new clutch to cheat with it, just apply too much grease.
It may not be possible to design an entirely cheat proof clutch, however it is their job (Scrutineers, MSA, ABkC, JAG et-al) to prove I'm cheating, it's not my job to prove I'm not.
Innocent until proven guilty applies in this country.
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Alan Dove
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 3770
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R111
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| how many sec per lap are we talking about in term of clutch slipping?? |
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Alan Dove wrote: | | http://s1series.co.uk/RotaxUnilogFittingKitOrder09.pdf |
ah i see.. so you get the mounting kit, they supply the actual logger? yeah???
Well That'd be be hard to implement that system into Club racing, wouldnt it? ALL clubs having to buy the logger?.. that wouldnt happen would it!? Unless the msa would just turn around and say we need to buy the whole thing?, in which case they really can Foxtrot Oscar!!
re. lap times.. well imagine a rotax with immense bottom end! Lap times are really reduced by clutch slip.. I am totally guessing.. but i personally would say on a 40 second track, you COULD gain as much as 0.5-0.8? maybe more????? not sure.. but its a lot i know.. on a track like Bayford Meadows where there are lots of hairpins, clutch slip would be the difference between normal finish and a win WITH a big lead..
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blobslosak
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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At Rowrah it's worth 1 sec a lap apparently, which I can believe as it's very twisty with all those hairpins
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R111
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| blobslosak wrote: | | At Rowrah it's worth 1 sec a lap apparently |
wow, 0.5~1sec per lap ?? so that why its a problem. i get it now.. |
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