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DGorman
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 880
Location: London
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 Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathand wrote: | Why clutches at all?!
What ever was the problem with push starting a kart? There'd be none of this nonsense going on then? Ta |
Who knows?! It went out of fashion around the time Rotax came in. Your not the only person asking that question at the moment though...
Couple of points:
1) Audi seatbelts were a safety issue that was directly the manufacturer's fault. This issue is neither of those. Lets keep it in proportion
2) To those against introduction of the dataloggers in S1. a) Do you yourselves race in S1? b) What alternative solution would you support to the problem?
And by alternative solution, I do not mean "get Rotax to pay for everyone to have a new clutch made from unobtanium in the next month". |
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kart4fun wrote: | | natew22 wrote: |
Im not being mean.. but you dont race do you.. Or you havent been involved in the sport that long?.. |
Nate, im not being mean either when i say i was racing carts before there was a track in Reading ...infact before they filled the hole that they built the Trail Park on !.
But you are correct, i dont race Rotax anymore.. not since 01 when i realised you needed a computer at the track to set up the ( dumb) carb if you wanted to be competitive.
There are other race series & promoters around if you don't like the current rules. Thats what i do if i dont like the rules... change class / motor... or go somewhere else.
| natew22 wrote: |
When the seatbelts were failing in the Audi A3's years back (was it the Audis?? but anyway..) Audi took the cars back and fixed them at their expense.. Why is this any different? Crappy seatbelts.. crappy clutches.... |
Domestic car safety equipment has a slightly higher profile than clutches sold for racing. 
The issue is not with the clutch design ( which is 50+ yrs old) but with the local application of the rules . |
Well if you've been involved in motorsports that long then you should have some appreciation for the great inflation in costs.. After all, one of the main problems in motorsports for many drivers is the expense of even being on the track..
Also, if we're being totally fair.. racing has changed since 01.. Also, you argue that more cost shouldnt be a problem, yet you say that you stopped racing Rotax when a computer was needed to set up the carb.. Well thats hightening of cost.. you werent happy.. so you stopped racing Max.. This new detector is a hightening cost.. We're not happy.
You say that you just switched classes/motors etc.. well thats fine mate, but I dont just up and change like that.. Especially as there is no class fit for me at this current moment.. Rotax suits my weight and (most of the time) budget.. Classes are different now than pre-01.. If and when a class comes along that is appropriate/beneficial, then changing may be a justified answer..
Sorry to sound rude, but I just dont think that changing class is an appropriate/justified thing to do just because of this rule change.. Switching motors/parts/chassis etc could potentially cost a fair bit more than a clutch slip detector anyway, not to mention grids etc!!!
Re. the clutch comparison to seat belts.. well at the end of the day the concept is very similar and the point stands. If the authorities/companies concerned weren't out to take even more money off drivers why would they charge £134.55 for 2 wires and a metal bracket?? There is no justification for that.
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Alan Dove
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding changing classes Vs grids. My way of thinking is rather than waiting for grids to happen... make them happen  We can't always expect others to make the risky choices for us. Actually there is a class available that wouldn't require you to change your chassis or motor package. It's called 125 Clubman. It's MSA approved and is basically a 125cc TaG class open to Rotax/Leopard/PRD/ROK engines. The added benefit for Rotax people is the seal is not required (as far as I know). They have a grid up at Hooton for anyone interested.
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah this is true Alan fair enough.. I suppose we cant juwt wait for others to switch in order for us to.. But I want to be racing at my home track (CKC), as well as Forest, Bayford, Shenni etc... And this is not possible in this class!
Im hoping the KF Clubman is approved and grids are opened at numerous circuits.. I really want to join that class.. but I cant really if it is only going to be at PFI.. I live MILES away from PFI..
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Kart4fun wrote: | | But you are correct, i dont race Rotax anymore.. not since 01 when i realised you needed a computer at the track to set up the ( dumb) carb if you wanted to be competitive. |
Not true, it helps, but you can race and do well with out one.
| Kart4fun wrote: | | There are other race series & promoters around if you don't like the current rules. Thats what i do if i dont like the rules... change class / motor... or go somewhere else. |
And what will you do when you run out of classes to swich to - give up karting completely.
| Kart4fun wrote: | | The issue is not with the clutch design ( which is 50+ yrs old) but with the local application of the rules . |
Err, yes it is to do with the design, if it wasn't badly designed in the first place then there wouldn't be this issue with grease would there.
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| DGorman wrote: | | 1) Audi seatbelts were a safety issue that was directly the manufacturer's fault. This issue is neither of those. Lets keep it in proportion |
Where is this not a manufacturers issue/fault, they have produced a clutch that is easy to cheat with, so they should fix the problem - not us though our pockets.
| DGorman wrote: | | 2) To those against introduction of the dataloggers in S1. a) Do you yourselves race in S1? b) What alternative solution would you support to the problem? |
No I don't race in S1, but that is irrelevant, as said in a previous post, if it introduced in S1 now, then it will filter down to club meetings as well - I reiterate - and as yet no one on here as given me and answer - why should I pay to fix a problem that isn't of my making
| DGorman wrote: | | And by alternative solution, I do not mean "get Rotax to pay for everyone to have a new clutch made from unobtanium in the next month". |
Well what possible solution is there, see my answer to your first question - once again I am sorry to repeat myself but Rotax have created the problem, they should be the one who provide the answer fix to it, and it's not making us buying equipment to moniter their dodgy clutch.
Consumer law in this country is fairly simple in some instances, if you buy in product or service and that product or service fails to perform satisfactorily then you are entitled to ask the supplier to provide a remedy for you - be that a replacement product or a refund of monies spent - the Rotax clutch is just such a product - and it down to Rotax/JAG to provide a solution that doesn't involve extra cost to you (or me) as a consumer.
You'll notice that the S1 series asked the participants to voluntary adopt the use of the loggers - want to have a guess as to why?
Almost certainly because if they had forced it through it would be in breach of consumer law as outlined above - go figure.
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Arrow racer
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 41
Location: KENYA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think this issue is quite stupid, fine rotax has large grids and all that but come on guys i think everyone has forgotten kartings roots the magical days with screamin engines and days when only people with driving skill would win. I think rotax needs a rethink they need a completely cheat proof clutch and engine like why is the 09 barrel slower than the 04 barrel Rotax and dellorto have horrible quality control issues. Which is very basic and easy to manage i cant beleive they let this issue escalate this far. Kf Clubman is the light at the end of the tunnel in my opinion.
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Where is this not a manufacturers issue/fault, they have produced a clutch that is easy to cheat with, so they should fix the problem - not us though our pockets.
Nick even if rotax fix the clutch isssue you will still need to buy an upgrade or somethin. It is inevitable that someone in your grid has a faster engine we cant expect our scrutineres to completely rebuild a entire engine and measure everything. I mean we have a had a similar issue with a kid in our championship racing in bambino who last year was struggling for a point but is now winning all the races it is rediculous but innevitable he was appealed and they are lookin at his engine for now.
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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just pointing attention to the barrels.. the 09 barrel is allegedly faster than the 04 and 07 barrels for senior.. I spoke to Birel team today.. they tested them against one another and data came back in favour of the 09 barrel..
What annoys me is that noone gives the same answer.. a few people say that the 09 is slower.. others say that its much faster.... 
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Alan Dove
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| natew22 wrote: | | What annoys me is that noone gives the same answer.. a few people say that the 09 is slower.. others say that its much faster.... |
That would suggest that the barrels may be inconsistent which would be a disaster?
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
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Location: Kent
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Arrow racer wrote: | | Nick even if rotax fix the clutch isssue you will still need to buy an upgrade or somethin. |
As you are in Kenya I guess you may not know/realise this issue is covered by consumer law in this country.
If a supplied product or service is faulty or not as described then I, and everyone else so affected, are quite within my/their rights to ask the supplier to provide a remedy/refund for the problem, without it costing me money that is a pure simple matter of fact, and neither Rotax nor JAG can choose to ignore those consumer rights.
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DGorman
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 880
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Nick wrote: | Where is this not a manufacturers issue/fault, they have produced a clutch that is easy to cheat with, so they should fix the problem - not us though our pockets.
why should I pay to fix a problem that isn't of my making
You'll notice that the S1 series asked the participants to voluntary adopt the use of the loggers - want to have a guess as to why? |
I understand your frustrations, but disagree with you on a few issues:
I can't see the blame going to Rotax for it's competitors misusing the clutch. It would be relatively easy to bore out the barrel aswell, or for that matter any other form of cheating. If you claim this is Rotax's fault, where do you draw the line at when it becomes the competitors fault? Before you say grease will naturally occur in the clutch, the bore will naturally wear out over time. Admitted, it's easier to quantify legality on the bore, but the same principle applies.
I fully agree that you should not pay to have the rules enforced in the sport. We had the same concern when this issue came up in KF. I do disagree with your assumption that this will invariably filter down to club level.
Re: Why S1 asked the participants to voluntarily adopt the loggers. Far from being anything to do with consumer law, the S1 regs and MSA championship regs require all changes to the supplementary regulations to be accepted by all competitors.
Nate: Remember that everyone has different refrence points when comparing the new barrels to old ones. People with bad old barrels may think the 09 one is awesome, people with good old barrels may disagree. Then consider that there are still differences in these new barrels, however small. The consider that many people do not test things properly and come to false conclusions. Finally, remember that anything you hear about on the karting grapevine cannot be taken as fact until you yourself have tested it! |
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Arrow racer
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 41
Location: KENYA
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Arrow racer wrote: | | Nick just because i live in kenya does not mean everything is backward over here we have the same laws. ok You are blaming jag and rotax because people are illegaly tuning there engines and clutches. The only thing rotax have done wrong is have horrible quality control in my opinion. |
fair play re living in Kenya..
but in that case a lack of quality control shouldnt constitute to such high prices.. also.. considering they are a 'leading' manufacturer, vast improvement should be made..
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DGorman wrote: | | Nate: Remember that everyone has different refrence points when comparing the new barrels to old ones. People with bad old barrels may think the 09 one is awesome, people with good old barrels may disagree. Then consider that there are still differences in these new barrels, however small. The consider that many people do not test things properly and come to false conclusions. Finally, remember that anything you hear about on the karting grapevine cannot be taken as fact until you yourself have tested it! |
Yeah this is very true! Was just about to raise that point myself.. its a total unfair test considering that literally every Rotax engine IS different pre 09!
All we really know is that the 09 barrels are fair (fairER)..
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Alan Dove
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| natew22 wrote: | | DGorman wrote: | | Nate: Remember that everyone has different refrence points when comparing the new barrels to old ones. People with bad old barrels may think the 09 one is awesome, people with good old barrels may disagree. Then consider that there are still differences in these new barrels, however small. The consider that many people do not test things properly and come to false conclusions. Finally, remember that anything you hear about on the karting grapevine cannot be taken as fact until you yourself have tested it! |
Yeah this is very true! Was just about to raise that point myself.. its a total unfair test considering that literally every Rotax engine IS different pre 09!
All we really know is that the 09 barrels are fair (fairER).. |
We don't know just yet All we know is the barrels that have been selected and sold (some may still be on the shelf) seem to have performed OK. I think we need a good 12-18 months to see how they really perform. Early signs are good however on track. On the dyno however I hear differing stories.... as usual
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