|
Karting1.co.uk
|
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
DGorman
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 880
Location: London
|
 Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:07 am Post subject: |
 |
|
I havent raced in Rotax for a fair few years, but from memory weren't the rules written such that the kart need only move forward at a certain RPM? If so, I can't see what data-loggers will achieve or how they will police the situation? The problem is that the rules do not (or certaintly didnt used to) disallow slipping clutched!
Which brings me to a second point, that if my understanding of the rules is correct, the people greasing clutches at the moment are not cheating per-se. I accept the addition of material to the engine may be a different matter..
To whomever asked why this hasnt been a problem before or in other classes:
The top CIK classes, where manufacturers develop products in a racing environment, have only used clutches for the last 3 years, and it took them a matter of months to establish this performance gain.
Whether this is the correct solution to the problem or not is a big topic for debate, but the Rotax classes REALLY don't want the problems KF had briefly with clutches. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kart4fun
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 404
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| DGorman wrote: |
To whomever asked why this hasnt been a problem before or in other classes:
The top CIK classes, where manufacturers develop products in a racing environment, have only used clutches for the last 3 years, and it took them a matter of months to establish this performance gain.. |
any one who thinks this has only been happening recently has been asleep for a while.
"slipping" clutches have been common on karts for many years. infact they are the standard on the common classes in the USA aand the clutches are designed to slip with an adjustable lock up speed to tune the clutch to the track & motor. ( A bit like the way drag racers "programme" their clutches )
So, if you think that some of the top / professional Rotax racers have not been aware of this advantage for a looooong time, ...... wake up ! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Savage
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 896
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kart4fun wrote: | | DGorman wrote: |
To whomever asked why this hasnt been a problem before or in other classes:
The top CIK classes, where manufacturers develop products in a racing environment, have only used clutches for the last 3 years, and it took them a matter of months to establish this performance gain.. |
any one who thinks this has only been happening recently has been asleep for a while.
"slipping" clutches have been common on karts for many years. infact they are the standard on the common classes in the USA aand the clutches are designed to slip with an adjustable lock up speed to tune the clutch to the track & motor. ( A bit like the way drag racers "programme" their clutches )
So, if you think that some of the top / professional Rotax racers have not been aware of this advantage for a looooong time, ...... wake up ! |
Wake up Kart4fun, D Gorman was a "Top Rotax Karter"
_________________
Dellorto, Mikuni and Keihin Jetting & Kart Setup Software
www.rotaxjetting.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Andy wrote: | | People are cheating, they did it with the old clutches all the time, and they will try with the new ones. |
Absolutley Andy, whilst not impossible to cheat with the old clutch it is was much harder to do so but also much easier to detect and police.
We how have the farcical situation where "the presence of a certain amount of grease within the clutch is not reason enough for DSQ" (or words to that effect) so please define for me "a certain amount" because Rotax can't, JAG can't, the MSA can't.
| Andy wrote: | | JAG/Rotax can't really be blamed for this one, the old clutch was easier to cheat with and not reliable, so they changed the design, it's not compulsory to run it (unless it's super1) so you still have a choice, you don't have to spend the money. |
I would guess that JAG are probably the least culpable out of the 2 of them, however that doesn't absolve them of their responsibilities, I repeat what I said in an earlier message, why wasn't this issue discovered during the proving stages of testing, during the trails etc, as far as I am aware, Rotax tested the new clutch and so did JAG, and if I have my information correct for a year before being satisfied with it and seeing it go into production - why wasn't this issue found then.
Pardon the corporate speak, but Rotax/JAG need to take ownership of the issue and find a fix for it and not pass the cost of their cockup back to us.
| Andy wrote: | | Other option is to find the cheat, all get together, break their legs, problem sorted, no one has to worry anymore. |
After you with the baseball bat please m8 
_________________
Nick |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kart4fun wrote: | | DGorman wrote: |
To whomever asked why this hasnt been a problem before or in other classes:
The top CIK classes, where manufacturers develop products in a racing environment, have only used clutches for the last 3 years, and it took them a matter of months to establish this performance gain.. |
any one who thinks this has only been happening recently has been asleep for a while.
"slipping" clutches have been common on karts for many years. infact they are the standard on the common classes in the USA aand the clutches are designed to slip with an adjustable lock up speed to tune the clutch to the track & motor. ( A bit like the way drag racers "programme" their clutches )
So, if you think that some of the top / professional Rotax racers have not been aware of this advantage for a looooong time, ...... wake up ! |
Oh so I suppose this perfect justification for us to pay even more race race then?  Do you race yourself? Do you know how much we spend just to get our karts on the grid already? Soon half of the grid will need to buy new pod bars with a stupid CIK/09 approval stamp on them! even though they are NO DIFFERENT to the 08 ones!!!!!
The disk pritector was a fair and smart move for the race regs this year.. but seriously.. I bet this clutch slip detector costs £80 minimum!!!
And your talking about 'top rotax racers' benefitting from clutch slip.. Well Im sorry.. but the majority of club racers are not 'top rotax racers'.. they are just people who love karting and want to compete in the sport.. half of the club racers havent even thought about making their clutch slip.. never mind actually doing it!!.. and yet they are adding this clutch slip detector to the shopping list.. Why not implement the rule where its actually needed more!?
Bold statement (more just as a point).. butI bet half of the S1 grid have clutch slip!?
_________________
Racing is life, everything else is merely waiting..
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| natew22 wrote: | | Well Im sorry.. but the majority of club racers are not 'top rotax racers'.. they are just people who love karting and want to compete in the sport.. half of the club racers havent even thought about making their clutch slip.. never mind actually doing it!!.. and yet they are adding this clutch slip detector to the shopping list.. |
Well said Nate 
If 'they' (the MSA/ABkC etc) try to make this compulsory for all Rotax classes in the UK, I will take this to the Office of Fair Trading and see what they have to say on the matter.
I will not be forced into paying to correct someone elses error, and neither should any other Rotax racer in this country, it is about time karters stood up in this country and stopped the importers/brand/class holders holding us to ransom when they cock it up, until and unless we do, this kind of thing will always continue to happen.
_________________
Nick |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nick wrote: | | natew22 wrote: | | Well Im sorry.. but the majority of club racers are not 'top rotax racers'.. they are just people who love karting and want to compete in the sport.. half of the club racers havent even thought about making their clutch slip.. never mind actually doing it!!.. and yet they are adding this clutch slip detector to the shopping list.. |
Well said Nate
If 'they' (the MSA/ABkC etc) try to make this compulsory for all Rotax classes in the UK, I will take this to the Office of Fair Trading and see what they have to say on the matter.
I will not be forced into paying to correct someone elses error, and neither should any other Rotax racer in this country, it is about time karters stood up in this country and stopped the importers/brand/class holders holding us to ransom when they cock it up, until and unless we do, this kind of thing will always continue to happen. |
Exactly mate!! They do it because they know they can.. and becuase they know that Rotax is the most dominant class!!.. Its like bullies.. they know they can walk all over people and so do.. But all it takes is for the victim to strike back and things change.. I mean its slightly different when looking at it from a corperate point of view but tis the same concept.. MSA/Rotax etc need to stop walking all over their customers.. they ARE ruining the sport..
Ill be with you taking this to the Fair Trades Standards bureau.. becuase this would just be robbery..
_________________
Racing is life, everything else is merely waiting..
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kart4fun
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 404
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
You guys are winding each other up 
First you complain that clutch slip is not being addressed, .. then you complain when a solution is proposed..
..No pleasing some folk
The only ones suggesting implementing this "slip detector" is S1...
... site admin here simply asked if clubs should consider buying them.
So, unless you are committed to S1 , stop panicking !.
And if you are involved in S1, this extra cost is less than one set of tyres and probably less than you spend on a pair of designer trainers to wear in the pits. 
If you are unhappy with the situation do something about it
..propose solutions via your club..
.. Protest competitors who you think are "cheating"
..or vote with your feet and find a new hobby ! 
Testing for clutch slip is simple, this is an over-engineered solution to a simple issue.
Oh and Nick, ... do take it to the OFT .. they need a good larf ( at your expence) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kart4fun wrote: | | First you complain that clutch slip is not being addressed, .. then you complain when a solution is proposed.. |
Yes a solution is proposed, at our expence.
Answer me one question, why should we pay to fix someone elses problem, if you think that is fine, then I have a bunch of stuff I need fixing at home, I'll get it sorted and send you the bill OK.
| Kart4fun wrote: | | The only ones suggesting implementing this "slip detector" is S1... |
S1 today, clubbies tomorrow, if I were competing in S1 I would still be as strongly opposed to it as I am now, to the guys in S1 the money side of it is quite probably of little concern to them, but if they allow it into S1, then you can bet your bottom dollar that it will permeate down to club level in fairly short order, lets not forget that a lot of the guys doing S1 also still race at their local clubs, so how can it not introduced there then.
| Kart4fun wrote: | | Testing for clutch slip is simple, this is an over-engineered solution to a simple issue. |
Well now it sounds like you are agreeing with me, yes testing is simple, and this is an unnecessary and unneeded expence, police the existing regulations properly before looking at possible alternative solutions, of course the obvious solution will be for Rotax to introduce a sealed bearing for the clutch, that will aleviate over greasing in an instance - and if my sources are correct, that is a solution that is being looked at
| Kart4fun wrote: | If you are unhappy with the situation do something about it
Oh and Nick, ... do take it to the OFT .. they need a good larf ( at your expence) |
Trust me I will, and no they won't laugh, neither will Trading Standards, they certainly didn't when I approached them about the 'old' Rotax clutch.
Fortunately we have very good consumer laws in this country, and despite the fact that it is sold as a racing application, it still has to be "fit for purpose" and clearly it wasn't, my local trading standards were quite ready to take the matter further it was only because a 'new' clutch was being introduced that they didn't.
I'm prepared to stand up and fight for what I believe in, and being ripped off is one such example, can you say the same, or are you like the rest, roll over and let them shaft you
_________________
Nick |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rushy
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 603
Location: Trowbridge, Wiltshire
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I bet this clutch slip detector costs £80 minimum!!! |
HAHA!, the fitting kit (2 wires and a little metal bracket, cost less than a tenner to build) are £117 + VAT!!!!! the cost is a joke, but is minimal compared to how much some people were/and are spending on clutches.
I read an article somewhere that the modified clutches were giving 3-4 tenths per lap, and just think about it, if people are doing that at your local rotax race, you wont be able to catch them! lol, for a one off price, it will cut all of this out, and make the sport fairer!
_________________
Formula K - JRMotorsport
http://fkuk.co.uk
Tecno Kart - R&S Motorsport
http://tecnokart.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frank The Tank
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nick wrote: | | of course the obvious solution will be for Rotax to introduce a sealed bearing for the clutch, that will aleviate over greasing in an instance - and if my sources are correct, that is a solution that is being looked at Smile |
I heard about that too, but why on Earth didn't they fit a sealed bearing in the first place if they had a years worth of testing time????
Either way, people will still be slipping clutches and without the logger you can take your chances and slip the clutch during heats and then play safe for the final if you feel that the scrutineers are on to you.
lets get the loggers on and go do some fair racing!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rushy wrote: | | Quote: | | I bet this clutch slip detector costs £80 minimum!!! |
HAHA!, the fitting kit (2 wires and a little metal bracket, cost less than a tenner to build) are £117 + VAT!!!!! the cost is a joke, but is minimal compared to how much some people were/and are spending on clutches.
I read an article somewhere that the modified clutches were giving 3-4 tenths per lap, and just think about it, if people are doing that at your local rotax race, you wont be able to catch them! lol, for a one off price, it will cut all of this out, and make the sport fairer! |
£117+vat!! I KNEW IT!!!! Yeah its true Rushy.. but its just typical how we have to pay for Rotax's mistakes..
Kart4fun | Quote: | You guys are winding each other up Surprised
First you complain that clutch slip is not being addressed, .. then you complain when a solution is proposed..
..No pleasing some folk Rolling Eyes
The only ones suggesting implementing this "slip detector" is S1...
... site admin here simply asked if clubs should consider buying them.
So, unless you are committed to S1 , stop panicking !.
And if you are involved in S1, this extra cost is less than one set of tyres and probably less than you spend on a pair of designer trainers to wear in the pits. Wink
If you are unhappy with the situation do something about it
..propose solutions via your club..
.. Protest competitors who you think are "cheating"
..or vote with your feet and find a new hobby ! Shocked
Testing for clutch slip is simple, this is an over-engineered solution to a simple issue.
Oh and Nick, ... do take it to the OFT .. they need a good larf ( at your expence) Wink |
Im not being mean.. but you dont race do you.. Or you havent been involved in the sport that long?.. or you have more disposable income than most?? Either way.. your not getting the point! Or maybe Nick's right and you dont mind being taken for a ride?
You tell Nick to do something about the situation if hes not happy.. well hes said multiply that he is going to.. And why would he want to 'find another hobby'? The reason we're upset about this is because we care about the sport and the people in it.. Im sure we're not the only people who doint want to spend £117+vat for two wires and a piece of metal, that we shouldnt be paying for anyway..?
When the seatbelts were failing in the Audi A3's years back (was it the Audis?? but anyway..) Audi took the cars back and fixed them at their expense.. Why is this any different? Crappy seatbelts.. crappy clutches..
But to be honest.. I suppose I wouldnt actually mind toooo much if the logger was £30 or so.. cos even though im pretty much being charged for the mistakes of others, at least it woudl be low cost.. but i just KNEW that itd be some riduculous piss take price.. And i wasnt wrong was I!!!!!
_________________
Racing is life, everything else is merely waiting..
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nathand
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi. My first post on here, just been reading this thread with interest.
I've been out of Karting for 10 years now, but used to compete quite often way back when.
I recently competed in a RotaxMax race with a couple of friends as a one off, but we had so much fun that we're looking into competing a bit more often.
Just wanted to ask...
Why clutches at all?!
What ever was the problem with push starting a kart? There'd be none of this nonsense going on then? Ta |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Frank The Tank wrote: | | I heard about that too, but why on Earth didn't they fit a sealed bearing in the first place if they had a years worth of testing time???? |
I imagine it's an engineering issue, at the moment we use a needle roller bearing when running a 12 or 13 tooth front, and a plain bearing when/if using the 11 tooth, replacing the needle roller bearing with a sealed unit shouldn't be that difficult, but nigh on impossible for when using the 11 tooth, if they can find some way around that issue then I expect that will likely be the way they will go.
_________________
Nick |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kart4fun
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 404
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| natew22 wrote: |
Im not being mean.. but you dont race do you.. Or you havent been involved in the sport that long?.. |
Nate, im not being mean either when i say i was racing carts before there was a track in Reading ...infact before they filled the hole that they built the Trail Park on !.
But you are correct, i dont race Rotax anymore.. not since 01 when i realised you needed a computer at the track to set up the ( dumb) carb if you wanted to be competitive.
There are other race series & promoters around if you don't like the current rules. Thats what i do if i dont like the rules... change class / motor... or go somewhere else.
| natew22 wrote: |
When the seatbelts were failing in the Audi A3's years back (was it the Audis?? but anyway..) Audi took the cars back and fixed them at their expense.. Why is this any different? Crappy seatbelts.. crappy clutches.... |
Domestic car safety equipment has a slightly higher profile than clutches sold for racing.
The issue is not with the clutch design ( which is 50+ yrs old) but with the local application of the rules . |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
