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Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: Clutch slip detector coming to rotax? |
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http://www.karting1.co.uk/news/?p=796
If it works at Super 1 are you up for fitting them at club races??? Perhaps clubs could buy a few and fit them at random before the finals! |
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tom99
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| a bit of a noob question but what does the clutch slipping do exactly. how does it improve performance? |
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Why should I have to pay to fix Rotax/Jag inability to build a clutch properly 
If they give me one, fine I'll use it, otherwise they can shove the idea where the sun doesn't shine as far as I am concerned.
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Alan Dove
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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It allows the engine to reach higher revs before fully engaging. If there is no power below 6000rpm you don't want the clutch fully engaging below that. So what a slippy clutch does is allow the engine to rev to 6k+ before fully engaging. A loophole in a regulations meant teams and drivers were trying all sorts of things. The only way to clampdown on it in KF was to introduce these devices as teams were spending thousands on clutches. A new clutch per race was not unheard of.
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Frank The Tank
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thing is Nick, there will be drivers whooping you because they are slipping their clutches, and you might be assuming they are out driving you when in fact they are not playing by the same rules as you..... (I'm assuming that you are not winning every race)
the unilogger does work and pretty much eliminates slipping clutches. For a one off purchase of £110 each we could be saving the rotax class, and making it even more fair for the future |
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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No Frank I don't win every race I enter (I wish  ), and yes you do have a point that others may be taking advantage of the ability to cheat with the clutch, however that is not the point.
The Rotax clutch is a big a fiasco as the try-it-on carb was last year, why should WE have to pay to sort out what should be the importers/manufacturers responsibility for fixing the issue.
If this was a Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall et-al and there was a fault like this affecting one of the range, it would be down to Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall etc to recall all the affected vehicles and cover the cost of providing the fix - yet again we are being fleeced by an importer/manufacturers inability to engineer their products properly.
I have already had to put my hand in my pocket buying the new clutch for this year, I'm bloody well not doing it again so JAG/Rotax can say "See we fixed the problem" they have created it, they should fix it FOC.
The FR125 didn't even need a new design (although it isn't - borrowed from elsewhere) of clutch, all it needed was the design of the old clutch modifying to stop the bloody pins from breaking quite so frequently, a 1st year engineering design student could have told them that and what they needed to do, but no what do they go and do, they go and reinvent the wheel and then it bites them in the arse - serves them right.
I will fight the complusory introduction of these loggers tooth and nail, and if it is made compulsory, then I will either stop MSA Rotax racing, or move to a different class.
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tom99
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| so basically you are getting better drive out of the corners because it engages at higher revs but im guessing this doesnt exactly do the clutch any good if there going through a clutch a race which is just mental lol. |
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Frank The Tank
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| tom99 wrote: | | so basically you are getting better drive out of the corners because it engages at higher revs but im guessing this doesnt exactly do the clutch any good if there going through a clutch a race which is just mental lol. |
That's it, but I think it was just kf who were spending out on machined/disposable clutches
Nick, How can they fix it? It's not Rotax's fault that people are finding clever ways to cheat. Is there such a thing as a clutch that is cheat proof, i doubt it.
The only way out of this to me is to bite the bullet and go with the uni-logger. |
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Nick
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Frank The Tank wrote: | | Nick, How can they fix it? It's not Rotax's fault that people are finding clever ways to cheat. Is there such a thing as a clutch that is cheat proof, i doubt it. |
Yes it is to a greater extent Rotax's fault, they have created a clutch that is open season to a cheat.
That doesn't mean that people didn't cheat using the 'old' clutch, but it was much easier to detect if they were so doing, all they needed to do was change the design by a very small amount and it would have improved the reliability no end, but no, they take a sledgehammer to crack a walnut and create a cheats paradise to boot, so where in that lot do you not see Rotax at fault for producing a clutch that is so easy to cheat with.
One final point that you might like to ponder upon, why wasn't this issue picked up during the testing procedure that Rotax should have carried out prior to putting it into full production and general release, if it wasn't picked up by Rotax under testing then it calls into doubt their testing procedures - because it bloody well should have been, if it was picked up by them, then why on earth did they release a clutch they knew would be a piece of cake to cheat with - in either case Rotax ARE responsible and should find a fix for the problem they have created and not pass the buck and cost back onto you, me and every other Rotax racer.
| Frank The Tank wrote: | | The only way out of this to me is to bite the bullet and go with the uni-logger. |
NO
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Nick wrote: | No Frank I don't win every race I enter (I wish ), and yes you do have a point that others may be taking advantage of the ability to cheat with the clutch, however that is not the point.
The Rotax clutch is a big a fiasco as the try-it-on carb was last year, why should WE have to pay to sort out what should be the importers/manufacturers responsibility for fixing the issue.
If this was a Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall et-al and there was a fault like this affecting one of the range, it would be down to Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall etc to recall all the affected vehicles and cover the cost of providing the fix - yet again we are being fleeced by an importer/manufacturers inability to engineer their products properly.
I have already had to put my hand in my pocket buying the new clutch for this year, I'm bloody well not doing it again so JAG/Rotax can say "See we fixed the problem" they have created it, they should fix it FOC.
The FR125 didn't even need a new design (although it isn't - borrowed from elsewhere) of clutch, all it needed was the design of the old clutch modifying to stop the bloody pins from breaking quite so frequently, a 1st year engineering design student could have told them that and what they needed to do, but no what do they go and do, they go and reinvent the wheel and then it bites them in the arse - serves them right.
I will fight the complusory introduction of these loggers tooth and nail, and if it is made compulsory, then I will either stop MSA Rotax racing, or move to a different class. |
To be honest i do have to agree with you on this one Nick... Rotax (and the MSA) actually do take the p*ss sometimes.. Firstly, you could buy a pretty decent-ish car for the money you pay for a SECOND HAND Rotax.. which I personally think that is disgusting! Ive seen many Rotax sell for £1000 plus even in the crunch! For a silly little 125cc that is rediculous IMO.. All I can say is that its lucky that people love karting so much and are willing to pay these prices.. (me included  )
This is why the KF Clubman class really interests me.. cos Rotax really is a bit of a joke at times..
I sound like im just plain slating Rotax.. It is a pretty reliable engine and good fun and all that.. But they are horrifically over priced.. They are uneven performance wise (and i DO NOT CARE if people disagree with this it is fact.. I have been beaten down straights by bloody Juniors and Im a Senior!!) for example.. the new 09 Barrel is SO fast for a Junior and minimax they are virtually the same speed as Seniors! The olny reason I can say this as fact is becuase I was beaten down the straight by a Junior Max.. I couldnt believe it was faster than my senior!!!!!!
Anyway.. yeah Nick I agree man!! Rotax is a silly class to be in at the moment!!!
Bring on the KF3 Club Senior!!!!!!!! I do hope they go through with this class for 2010!!! Before/if I move on, I want to race a kart that doesnt cost me the earth just to be thrashed by the Junior version!
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Frank The Tank wrote: | | Nick, How can they fix it? It's not Rotax's fault that people are finding clever ways to cheat. Is there such a thing as a clutch that is cheat proof, i doubt it. |
NO offense meant at all.. But if thats the case then its funny how this clutch slipping trick isnt an issue in other classes with different engines from other manufacturers!... (or is it? the only times ive ever read about this problem it has been with Rotax)
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Alan Dove
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| natew22 wrote: | | Frank The Tank wrote: | | Nick, How can they fix it? It's not Rotax's fault that people are finding clever ways to cheat. Is there such a thing as a clutch that is cheat proof, i doubt it. |
NO offense meant at all.. But if thats the case then its funny how this clutch slipping trick isnt an issue in other classes with different engines from other manufacturers!... (or is it? the only times ive ever read about this problem it has been with Rotax) |
The problem first started in the KF classes. Teams were using disposable clutches and had f1 grade companies supplying materials. This exposed the whole issue and why we saw a clamp down in rotax. KF now has standard clutches with the Unipro to monitor it.
| Quote: | | Before/if I move on, I want to race a kart that doesnt cost me the earth just to be thrashed by the Junior version! |
KF3s will be much quicker than KF Clubman 
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Andy
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 376
Location: Surrey
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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People are cheating, they did it with the old clutches all the time, and they will try with the new ones. JAG/Rotax can't really be blamed for this one, the old clutch was easier to cheat with and not reliable, so they changed the design, it's not compulsory to run it (unless it's super1) so you still have a choice, you don't have to spend the money.
I do agree with you though Nick, I don't see why we should have to pay to police it, what I've seen happen is a mychron plugged in to each kart on the grid, rear wheels off the ground and rev to see what rev's where being pulled before the wheels started to move, easy, quickish and very cheap for the club.
Other option is to find the cheat, all get together, break their legs, problem sorted, no one has to worry anymore. |
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natew22
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1045
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Dove wrote: | | natew22 wrote: | | Frank The Tank wrote: | | Nick, How can they fix it? It's not Rotax's fault that people are finding clever ways to cheat. Is there such a thing as a clutch that is cheat proof, i doubt it. |
NO offense meant at all.. But if thats the case then its funny how this clutch slipping trick isnt an issue in other classes with different engines from other manufacturers!... (or is it? the only times ive ever read about this problem it has been with Rotax) |
The problem first started in the KF classes. Teams were using disposable clutches and had f1 grade companies supplying materials. This exposed the whole issue and why we saw a clamp down in rotax. KF now has standard clutches with the Unipro to monitor it.
| Quote: | | Before/if I move on, I want to race a kart that doesnt cost me the earth just to be thrashed by the Junior version! |
KF3s will be much quicker than KF Clubman |
ah fair enough about the KF issues.. I guess the centrifugal clutch is jsut destined to be messed with!!!
And yeah the KF3's are quicker than the KF clubman.. But thats not a fair comparison at all when different tyres are used and the weight limit is far more for the same engine.. Doesnt anyone find it rediculous that a Junior Max can be so much quicker than a Senior Max.. cos that just takes the mick to me!! The juniors and Seniors may as well run together if thats how the Junior engine is going be be..
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Alan Dove
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 3765
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| natew22 wrote: | | Doesnt anyone find it rediculous that a Junior Max can be so much quicker than a Senior Max.. cos that just takes the mick to me!! The juniors and Seniors may as well run together if thats how the Junior engine is going be be.. |
I can see why so many drivers would disgruntled. For quite a long time Junior TKM used to be faster than the Seniors at some circuits before the 115cc mod came in.
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